Comments on Sentient Developments: Sorry ladies, the male birth control pill is not a...

I would take the pill for sure! Can't wait. No u...

2008-05-23T06:08:00.000-04:00

I would take the pill for sure! Can't wait. No unwanted pregnancies for me!

I don't see how an external womb wouldn't tie into...

2008-05-19T14:53:00.000-04:00

I don't see how an external womb wouldn't tie into male reproductive issues. Women's eggs can be harvested, men's sperm can be donated. If there is an external womb, a man can be the one responsible for housing the fetus for the duration of the pregnancy. Men would have access to all components to make a child, the donated ova that they purchased to place in the external womb they purchased and their own sperm or they can even purchase that if they want too. This can be beneficial for many different people. Same-sex male couples, a man who may want to raise a child with his significant other but she may not be able to withstand the physiologic stress of pregnancy, a single man who does want to start a family, and I am sure other men may decide to use it if they so desire. A uterus (womb) is an inherently female reproductive organ, so a different name would probably be more suitable. But I think the concept would allow for more men to be self-reliant in their reproductive choices, since they would no longer have to rely on women to supply the womb.

Cliff and Larry: You guys are welcome to resume th...

2008-05-09T14:44:00.000-04:00

Cliff and Larry: You guys are welcome to resume this conversation, but not here. It's starting to regress badly.

"And by the way, Larry Brown is only my pen name."...

2008-05-09T14:28:00.000-04:00

"And by the way, Larry Brown is only my pen name."

...what? Did you think I was going to try to look your name up and go after you?

Of course it's a pen name. You're just some self-important jerk on the internet. There's a billion of you out there.

I have no reason to believe that you know what you're talking about. I'm done with this argument.

Stop being such a wussy and give it up with the “p...

2008-05-08T20:14:00.000-04:00

Stop being such a wussy and give it up with the “personal attacks” accusations. It’s gotten old already.

But the reason I feel so passionately about issues concerning men and fathers rights and male contraception in particular is because I see a steady stream of philosophically misguided guys just like you and your buddy Mark marched into my court room every day by their ex-girlfriends and ex-wives seeking full custody and child support orders.

And in the vast majority of the cases I have to grant it to them because my hands are tied. You guys are just walking sperm banks and ATMs. And what gets me is you're always so surprised when you lose everything. Like a dopey dear in the headlights. Don't you know anything about the way law works?

Here's the thing guy, anyone that subscribes to a philosophical ideology that is not in line with their own best legal interest is a fool. Because we are a nation of laws. Not a nation of ideologies.

So I don't care if you've been a good little feminist male and done the dishes and changed the baby for your wife or girlfriend when I see you. I'm going to take up to 35% of your GROSS income anyway.

Basically what I'm trying to say to you men is you need to stop waiting on the government to do something for you that you can do for yourself and take control of your own reproductive destinies.

That way you'll never have to meet an S.O.B like me. And yes I know I'm an S.O.B.

Of course I'm sure I said something too harsh, inappropriate or unnecessary so, I apologize in advance.

And by the way, Larry Brown is only my pen name.

If it makes you feel any better, you've linked to ...

2008-05-08T16:33:00.000-04:00

If it makes you feel any better, you've linked to a lot of relevant information on the topic, and have obviously done your research. I had previously no idea that viable male contraceptives were available. Thanks for the heads up.

I'm just curious about why your arguments are swathed in personal attacks. Everybody else seemed to be having a civil discussion.

Whoa back at ya cliff.I’m sorry if I hurt your bud...

2008-05-07T19:50:00.000-04:00

Whoa back at ya cliff.
I’m sorry if I hurt your buddy’s feelings. But it wasn’t hostility. It was the frustration that comes from being attacked by people that don’t even understand you’re trying to help them.

I really hope you and mark don’t end up family court someday. Because then you’ll really know what hostility is.

Whoa there, Larry Brown.Where's all this hostility...

2008-05-07T15:44:00.000-04:00

Whoa there, Larry Brown.
Where's all this hostility coming from?
I didn't see anything in mark's comment to warrant some of your statements.

I don’t understand your logic mark. Maybe because...

2008-05-06T23:06:00.000-04:00

I don’t understand your logic mark. Maybe because it isn’t logic at all, it’s fear. And maybe you’re one of the feminist demagogues I spoke about in my earlier post. At any rate I'll give the benefit of doubt- this time.

The experimental contraceptive pill I suggested has a proven track record of working on 95% of the male population. And it and its effectiveness can be verified (in advance) using a test called the S.P.A test.

http://malecontraceptives.org/methods/nifedipine.php

And that’s a whole lot better than what you’ve gotten from the FDA. Which is nothing.

Nifedipine was first approved by the FDA over 25 years ago and it’s side effects have well documented on over one million patients. And it is one of the top-10 medications prescribed in the United States.

So there you are mark, all the (facts) and references to verifiable documentation you need to correct your misunderstandings. But somehow I feel facts are just not enough for you. So let me try this another way.

Let’s say you come home one day and your house was on fire. And one of your (already existing) kids was trapped in an upstairs bedroom. Would you risk your life to try and save him? Or would you play it safe and wait for the better trained, better equipped, professional firemen to arrive?

I know what I would do. And it wouldn’t be safe. But I’m not so sure about you.

Here’s the point, whenever you have to make a tough decision in life (and this is one of the toughest ones a man will ever make) you have to weight all the variables. And give each one the proper weight they deserve. And your sperm IS your future kid (as far in your contribution goes). So protecting it should be paramount to you. Even if there are risks.

Now you can play it safe and wait for the firemen at the FDA to arrive and save your future kids or you can develop a little fortitude and do what I (and many other men) have done and save them yourself.

And if that's “a little offensive” to you, you're “a lot” offensive to me.

Personally I find it more than a little offensive ...

2008-05-04T22:58:00.000-04:00

Personally I find it more than a little offensive for anyone to denigrate men for not wanting to 'try' an experimental male birth control pill. With the well documented bias of the family courts and the extremely aggressive enforcement of excessive child support/alimony, 'trying' a male birth control pill is like playing russian roulette while 'trying' the world's first bullet proof vest/helmet: quite simply, if the thing doesn't work - even once - your life is ruined. Offer a highly publicized, watertight, permanent and all-encompassing legal exemption against any subsequent 'obligations' for those men who agree to enroll in the trials of such a pill and you might get a reasonable response rate, but even with all that, all other reasons aside, with the current legal and political climate being what it is, many men will be reluctant.

There was another male contraceptive (that has zer...

2008-05-02T17:42:00.000-04:00

There was another male contraceptive (that has zero side effects) I failed to mention in my last post. I guess I was typing too fast or something. But its called IMPLANON and it was just approved by the FDA and rushed to market about two years ago.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Sex/story?id=2210820

http://www.implanon-usa.com/Consumer/index.asp?C=67878395709221990741

Now of course the first thing you’ll notice when you arrive at the product’s official website is that this is a female contraceptive. And so you may wonder why I said it’s a male contraceptive.

Well because in the real world any implanted female contraceptive is also male verifiable. And that makes it a male’s contraceptive.

For example my nephew Little Tony just got married last year. And that boy is like a rabbit. But he’s also a great kid that doesn’t need any unwanted surprises until he finishes college. So I gave him a little cash to get her implanted (before the wedding). And I’m happy to say there’s been no accidents in the past 15 months. Every time he comes by the house he’s always thanking his good old uncle Larry for helping him out.

Thanks, Larry! I'll be sure to check out those lin...

2008-05-02T10:38:00.000-04:00

Thanks, Larry! I'll be sure to check out those links. Sounds fascinating.

Congratulations on a thoroughly researched and wel...

2008-05-02T10:26:00.000-04:00

Congratulations on a thoroughly researched and well written article. It is refreshing and encouraging to finally see other writers and citizen advocates connecting the dots and correctly identifying the important social, political and economic dynamics pertaining to the issue of male contraception.

Although I have to say that some of the intellectually cloaked but profoundly ignorant and stereotypical comments posted here were far less impressive.

So if you intend on pursuing anything related to the highly contentious (winner takes all) issue of reproductive equity for men prepare yourself for more ignorance, demagoguery and even personal attacks.

I know because I’ve been there and done that many, many times while producing my own public access tv show on cable television. I didn’t get wore down or discouraged and I still do believe Franklin was right about the pen being mightier than the sword. But I also came to realize that negotiating with people in the court of public opinion when you have no leverage is an exercise in futility.

The biggest problem is that most people believe that there is no undetectable male contraceptive available today simply because the FDA has not formally approved a male birth control pill. And as long as that mis-perception exists the demagogues will continue to confuse and scare the public with exaggerated side effects and unfounded social issues to assure that they never do. And it’s a pretty good tactic because it’s worked for decades.

But the reality is that there are undetectable male contraceptive options for men equal to the effectiveness of the female pill that have far fewer side effects.

For example a man who has high blood pressure could use the drug Nifedipine to treat his problem and receive the additional benefit of a drug that prevents your sperm from binding to the egg in a woman’s uterus. And it goes to work in less than two days according to Dr. Susan Benoff. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJI/is_3_10/ai_60300659

Also there’s Dr. Chris Jenks the foremost authority in the United States on the subject of testicular heating. You can find the results of his work here. http://www.puzzlepiece.org/bcontrol/malebc.html

And if you want to find out even more about undetectable contraceptive options for men check out some of these sites.
http://www.malecontraceptives.org/
http://www.newmalecontraception.org/
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/malecontraceptives/
http://burningballs.blogspot.com/

The reasons I took the time to share all this with you today is

(a)I liked your article for the reasons I stated above.
(b)I wanted to offer some tangible solutions to this dialog.

In the final analogy it is highly unlikely that the FDA will be releasing any male contraceptive pills to the public anytime soon based on their past performances.

That is until men do what women did in the late 1950’s when they started taking the drug Enovid http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/peopleevents/e_searle.htmloff-label as a female birth control pill and forced the issue.

I agree with cliff. The women's movement is addres...

2008-04-30T21:47:00.000-04:00

I agree with cliff. The women's movement is addressing sexual issues, or trying to at any rate. But it's an unbalanced equation (which means that technically it's not an equation) - men need to pick up the slack.

I know what you mean about male stereotyping; the first thing I thought when I was reading this over was a mixture of "This is really cool" and "I'll bet a lot of men are going to find a way to use this to be irresponsible." The problem is, you're right, there's no men's consciousness about sexuality. Aside from condom use, there's really not that much thinking about it going on.

The historical reasons for this probably include a lot of women's oppression, and oppressibility, for that matter. What could be more inequitable than something you must do for the sake of species continuance, which half of all people have no choice in, where the half without the choice become incapacitated thereby, and which social precedent sets responsibility for on the shoulders of the half with the choice?

It's obvious why feminism came first, but the progress will slow and slow from now on until men start getting their act together, and I think this pill will be a part of that. How often do you have to take it? Did you say? It'll be a bit iffy at first, but social pressures and inertia aside, the ease of use of such a thing, and from what you've said, the apparently enormous efficacy, I think will contribute to its ultimately becoming pretty normalised.

When men find themselves routinely doing something for pragmatic reasons which nevertheless raises their thinking about sexual issues (and condoms will still contribute in terms of thinking about STIs), and raises it in such a regular manner, which is not itself tied immediately to the sex act, they will gradually grow themselves consciousness about it.

This little pill is a seed (not literally). This is really cool!

On the one hand, you're saying that men are being ...

2008-04-30T17:19:00.000-04:00

On the one hand, you're saying that men are being unfairly portrayed as unaccountable by feminists. On the other hand, you cite the MSN-Zogby poll showing that men are in large part unexcited about the prospect of male birth control. Little bit of a contradiction, I feel.

You hint at the cause of the problem several times throughout the post - the lack of a men's movement, a collective drive to foster capability, responsibility, and accountability in men. I think this is a huge unaddressed issue in our society.

Take it! Seriously, take it: both the pill and th...

2008-04-30T08:16:00.000-04:00

Take it!

Seriously, take it: both the pill and the isn't-child-bearing-wonderful-fantastic-and-part-of-being-able-to-identify-yourself-as-human whooplah. I don't want any of it.

I, for one, welcome our new penis-and-womb bearing overlords.

I don't doubt that this "perpetual male adolescent...

2008-04-30T06:36:00.000-04:00

I don't doubt that this "perpetual male adolescent" stereotype has some truth to it. In fact, I recognise some of that in myself, but... why does it happen?

It's a confusion of cause and effect: if 42% of women would consider resorting to deception to become pregnant, is it any wonder men are reluctant to "commit"? When the costs of rearing children in this overpopulated world are soaring, and the extended family support system is a relic from history?

I really don't get the remark about men shirking their "parental responsibility" towards non-existent children. What could be more responsible than not fathering unwanted children in the first place? That's right: unwanted. If only one of the two parents wants that child, it's unwanted by the other parent. That doesn't mean that it won't become wanted and loved over time, even before birth, but the deception is not forgotten. See you on the Jerry Springer and Maury shows, or even Dr. Phil.

Only 14% of people would willingly take a new, untested drug, with unknown long-term side-effects? Why, maybe there's some sense in America after all. Let's see the polls after the Phase III trials are complete and published.

nato welch, I suppose equalization is a better des...

2008-04-29T23:41:00.000-04:00

nato welch, I suppose equalization is a better description than 'wresting control.' Women, after all, have still chosen to reproduce despite having so-called control over reproduction. I don't think that men en masse will decide to stop reproducing and hold the species hostage. So this apprehension that's voiced by a minority of feminists is definitely overstated.

Interesting development. I think the relevant impe...

2008-04-29T23:39:00.000-04:00

Interesting development. I think the relevant impediments to widespread use are, 1) as you said, lack of interest among men, and 2) cost, depending on what it is.

We've been hearing about the cocaine vaccine for years, but development has been slow, because Big Pharma doesn't see large potential revenues. The target audience is generally poor, lacks health insurance, and insurance providers don't have good coverage for addiction (like most mental health problems).

As always, the technical aspects are only one part of the problem. The social, political and economic aspects are the other parts.

Athena: George didn't say that progestin is a "part of" testosterone. He correctly pointed out that the drug would be a cocktail of progestin and testosterone.

nato -- admittedly, I may have overstated the the ...

2008-04-29T23:37:00.000-04:00

nato -- admittedly, I may have overstated the the influence that women and femnists have in inhibiting the development of this pill. But I will say the sentiments I described in this post do in fact exist. My article was largely instigated by a radio show I was listening to in which the female guests routinely slighted male accountability and the need for a pill.

So, from a social perspective, the struggle to normalize these issues and the importance of having a male contraceptive is very real.

Heh, interesting: two votes for the external womb....

2008-04-29T23:33:00.000-04:00

Heh, interesting: two votes for the external womb. Not quite sure what to make of that given that this was intended to be a discussion of male reproductive issues and the men's movement.

Honestly while I agree the male pill will have an ...

2008-04-29T22:48:00.000-04:00

Honestly while I agree the male pill will have an impact, I doubt it will have the same impact as the original Pill. After all, there's already been a pill.

The real change will happen once somebody makes a working external womb.

Progestin is not found in testosterone. It's a sy...

2008-04-29T22:01:00.000-04:00

Progestin is not found in testosterone. It's a synthetic analog of progesterone, which is chemically related to testosterone (all sex hormones are related).

Regarding true equal reproductive rights, the only advance that will accomplish that is the development of artificial wombs. I discuss this very briefly here:
http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=74

That's bizarre. Thank you for pointing this out. I...

2008-04-29T21:22:00.000-04:00

That's bizarre. Thank you for pointing this out.

I'm failing to see how an MBCP "wrests" control //away// from women by giving men the same power they //will still// retain. That's like saying copying is stealing. The only real power they'd be losing is the ability to dupe a man into conceiving a child against his will. Is that really the power they're talking about?

This is also amusing when you consider how some transhumanists consider non-remedial/therapeutic modifications (of which they use contraception as the prime actually-existing example) to be "inevitable" augmentations that "everyone will want". Apparently, commercial R&D processes can't even find a way to make it available because it isn't profitable enough for them. On top of that, //almost no one actually wants it//.

Don't get me wrong - *I* would very much like to try it (when it becomes available, affordable and safe). I just think that transhumanists would do well to be prepared to accept that not everyone - and perhaps not even most - will want "enhancements".

And furthermore, I'm chalking this up as yet another thing markets can't seem to deliver.

It seems to me that the role of "self-serving femi...

2008-04-29T19:41:00.000-04:00

It seems to me that the role of "self-serving feminists who refuse to relinquish reproductive power" is overplayed here. First off, men remain unable to choose to have a baby, barring various rape/blackmail/imprisonment methods that are thankfully in decline because of feminism. Second, how big a role are those awful feminists really playing in delaying MBCPs? It seems to me that this is far more relevant: "A recent MSN-Zogby poll revealed that only 14% of Americans would definitely take it or insist that their partner take it. And tellingly, the study indicated that women are slightly more excited about the prospect than men."

True feminism is also a men's movement, since we (men) hurt ourselves as well as women with our brittle, reactionary stance toward gender roles. Those courts wouldn't be so biased against us if it weren't for the infamous behavior of those who insist that raising children is women's work. I'm sure there's plenty of feminists out there being unhelpful or even counterproductive, but holy moly, are they really the big problem?