tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post6059677677033021248..comments2023-10-30T04:16:25.917-04:00Comments on Sentient Developments: Dreamers of a Better Future, Unite!Georgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-1214068877013413042010-07-09T23:46:21.475-04:002010-07-09T23:46:21.475-04:00"Suffice it to say that the patternist theory..."Suffice it to say that the patternist theory is untestable -- and therefore indeed philosophy, not science." Isn't the same true of your beliefs about personal identity? If you're purely talking about science, then you certainly can't mention "personal identity" as an obstacle to mind uploading. I personally see personal identity as sort of folk concept that has no deep grounding in reality.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16992537391516437848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-87560707624673816072009-06-02T01:38:35.539-04:002009-06-02T01:38:35.539-04:00Tony, you state explicitly that the upload copy is...Tony, you state explicitly that the upload copy is a distinct entity, which my point. I've gone into (dis)continuity of identity here and elsewhere, so I won't repeat myself. Suffice it to say that the patternist theory is untestable -- and therefore indeed philosophy, not science.Athena Andreadishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650180659001228746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-76904155110215571962009-06-02T00:25:37.056-04:002009-06-02T00:25:37.056-04:00Another good post, thank you for sharing your thou...Another good post, thank you for sharing your thoughts, Athena. I support the sentiment that we eventually have to spread out into space and I also think that many transhumanists support such endeavors. I don’t think we should stop developing space access technology until we’ve developed other emerging technologies that might enable us faster/better access to space, but that we should support all of them simultaneously. <br /><br />"Even if technological advances eventually enable synapse-by synapse reconstructions, the results will be not transfers but copies"<br />Sorry for opening this again, but I don't see why this would be a problem in any meaningful sense. (I'll leave the issues of the technical feasibility of uploading or whole brain emulation aside for the moment.)<br />The idea of uninterrupted, continuous identity/awareness is, in my opinion, largely an illusion. An exquisitely comforting one, but an illusion nonetheless. Just as the continuity of our awareness is interrupted every time we go to sleep, we might just as well be "copies" of ourselves from yesterday when we wake up. Our constituent atoms are continuously exchanged over time through food/water intake and elimination, so the material our bodies are made of doesn’t stay the same through time. Even the patterns forming our unique mind at a specific point in time are not static and unchanging, they change constantly. <br />Am I at this moment the same person I was when I was five years old? Legally, I am. Regarding the material that makes up my body at this moment, I am not. Regarding the pattern that constitutes my unique mind, I am not. And that’s what really counts in my opinion. Cognitively, I am more similar to, for example, a stranger, who shares similar beliefs, ideals, ethics, preferences, etc., than I am to myself when I was 12 years old. <br />I realize that if my (Toni#1) brain was scanned right now and implemented on a different computational substrate (Toni#2), I (Toni#1) would still have the feeling that I am a person distinct from my upload, sitting under a scanner, looking at the computational platform housing my upload (Toni#2). But does that even matter? The thing I really care about is the similarity of the cognitive architecture between the two of us. Even if I were to die, what’s really important about me (my brain/mind) would continue in Toni#2. <br />At least that’s how I look at it currently, other experimental evidence might change my mind, I think that the patternist philosophy of mind is correct as far as continuity of personal identity goes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485728886686052001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-50099319390427769462009-06-01T13:34:55.236-04:002009-06-01T13:34:55.236-04:00Emperor (of...?), I agree with your last comment: ...Emperor (of...?), I agree with your last comment: I also think that if we slip now we won't be able to recover, because the resources for our technology (iron, coal, oil, as well as the rare but crucial transition metals like nickel) have been mined to near exhaustion.<br /><br />I think we need to pass two bottlenecks to guarantee our survival as we'd like it to be. One is bionanotech, which is already here naturally and needs to be explored and fine-tuned; the other is establishment of a second long-term large-scale habitat, which will also force us to understand what works in this one, and how to keep it working.<br /><br />This underscores the point that space exploration is compatible not only with transhumanism, but with ecology as well -- as long as it's not undertaken as a vanity foray to showcase dominance but as the make-or-break experiment that it is.Athena Andreadishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650180659001228746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-16752693051930578162009-06-01T12:24:46.159-04:002009-06-01T12:24:46.159-04:00I wholeheartedly agree.
I also think that making ...I wholeheartedly agree.<br /><br />I also think that making the leap into space is not just viable but vital. I expressed such sentiments <A HREF="http://www.dailygrail.com/news/science-fiction-in-an-all-too-real-world#comment-39587" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<br /><br />We need to sketch out, in detail, the steps required to get us to a Type 1 civilisation on the Kardashev scale, so we can ensure focus/finance on technologies we need now and ensure that when we move forward everything is already ready to go - you could slice decades off this journey and keep us ahead of man-made disasters (like climate change).<br /><br />Even the climate change skeptics have to acknowledge we should be working hard to create a smooth transition to a post-Carbon economy (throw in "energy security" and you could skip the awkward arguments about anthropogenic climate change).<br /><br />So in the short-term we need silicon-free and hopefully printable and flexible solar panels. We need to create solar farms in North Africa (for Europe) and the Southern States in the US (the former having the advantage of providing jobs, income and stability to those countries).<br /><br />We also need to be planning for a permanent space presence (beyond the ISS) and the Moon seems ideal. Mining Helium-3, creating mass drivers for cheap launching of ships/satellites. Ultimately we'll need giant solar satellites to beam vast amounts of energy back to Earth. It is also round about here that we'll need the space elevators and there are clearly some big technological issues that need addressing before then. It is this point where human augmentation really kicks in - we'll need a way to strengthen bones, miners working for long periods out in the asteroid belt will want upgrading further, as will Martian colonists. Presumably we'll need nanotech to repair wear and tear (as doctors might be a long way away), cybernetic upgrades, perhaps the ability to breath air with lower percentages of oxygen.<br /><br />This should get us to Type 1 and then beyond that we'll have more need for modifications as people move further out into the Solar System and permanently settling on other worlds/moons/space bases.<br /><br />So yes they go hand in hand and I don't feel we can focus on just spacefaring or transhumanism as they work together and we need an integrated step-by-step plan to make sure everything is progressing at the right pace to keep everything moving forward (I suspect if we slip and fall back we might not get the chance again).Emperorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02761570379917202477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-21799539533545776332009-05-30T22:46:39.741-04:002009-05-30T22:46:39.741-04:00I haven't read that particular story, Steve. But ...I haven't read that particular story, Steve. But the scene you describe reminds me a bit of the ending of Bulgakov's <I>The Master and Margarita</I>, in which Pontius Pilate and his faithful dog are walking on the path made by moonlight on their way to heaven.Athena Andreadishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650180659001228746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-83152660792099547242009-05-30T22:37:46.726-04:002009-05-30T22:37:46.726-04:00You may have read Clifford D. Simak's great 1944 s...You may have read Clifford D. Simak's great 1944 story, 'Desertion', which features a transhuman and a transcanine(?).<br /><br />A series of transformed people have been sent to explore the atmosphere of Jupiter. None returned.<br /><br />Finally the program leader transforms himself to see what has happened, taking his faithful dog with him.<br /><br />Instead of death in the atmosphere of Jupiter, they soon discover that they are on a higher plain of existence.<br /><br />Now they know why no one returned.<br /><br />“I can’t go back,” the man says.<br /><br />“Nor I,” agrees Towser. “They would turn me back into a dog.”<br /><br />“And me into a man.”Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17233238451356532910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-75436720039083023172009-05-30T13:59:26.128-04:002009-05-30T13:59:26.128-04:00Mac, Giulio -- detailed views of the future aside,...Mac, Giulio -- detailed views of the future aside, every careful thinker has reached the same conclusion: if we want to survive in the long term, we must take to space.<br /><br />Nebris, join the long queue! (*laughs*)Athena Andreadishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650180659001228746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-48444304081614780002009-05-30T13:24:50.058-04:002009-05-30T13:24:50.058-04:00I adore you.I adore you.Nebrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05974591864059776528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-39110647458848298672009-05-30T13:05:22.609-04:002009-05-30T13:05:22.609-04:00I agree!
While on the one hand I believe that ulti...I agree!<br />While on the one hand I believe that ultimately space will be for radically modified posthumans, on the other hand I think at this moment we need seeing people like us living and working in space. We need it for our mental health as a species, to remind us of a bright future to build.Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-70845366603069632842009-05-29T22:22:29.958-04:002009-05-29T22:22:29.958-04:00Bravo! I absolutely agree with you. And so would...Bravo! I absolutely agree with you. And so would Timothy Leary.Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074004681516756703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-64285339056894148482009-05-29T16:53:45.354-04:002009-05-29T16:53:45.354-04:00Go Democrats, you may recall that Plymouth and Bot...Go Democrats, you may recall that Plymouth and Botany Bay almost failed. The former would have but for the indigenous people's help. Also, many past expeditions were proportionately as expensive as a major space jaunt and their human losses were invariably far heavier.<br /><br />As I said in the post, the hurdles cannot be minimized or ignored. You will find more details in my Making Aliens series -- and of course specifics will change as both our knowledge of space and our technologies advance.Athena Andreadishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07650180659001228746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-27658335821310763302009-05-29T15:42:23.832-04:002009-05-29T15:42:23.832-04:00All very imaginative, but given the fact that "spa...All very imaginative, but given the fact that "space tourism" is in its infancy if it comes to be realized at all, and that a ticket on one of Sir Richard Branson's as yet untried spacecraft will set you back a cool 200k, I don't see how space is going to become the next Plymouth or Botany Bay.Go Democratshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01921729627957540312noreply@blogger.com