tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post470199195244473049..comments2023-10-30T04:16:25.917-04:00Comments on Sentient Developments: The struggle to make vegetarianism the new normalGeorgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-72037454730612164792007-09-13T22:46:00.000-04:002007-09-13T22:46:00.000-04:00Don't know if you're still checking the comments o...Don't know if you're still checking the comments on this thread, George, but I found your original post very useful. Your analyses of the various fallacies are excellent ammunition for anyone who finds himself in the position of needing to defend vegetarianism to an argumentative meat-eater.<BR/><BR/>On a personal note, I was a vegetarian/occasional dairy and seafood eater when a friend pointed me to your post. I realized I could and should make an even deeper ethical commitment, so I converted to full-on veganism. Couldn't be happier--or healthier. So thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-90693291224705001452007-09-13T09:35:00.000-04:002007-09-13T09:35:00.000-04:00You state you are a polemicist - so why not rant a...You state you are a polemicist - so why not rant at religion instead, as it is more closer in subject to ethics than "meat-eating"!<BR/><BR/>Humans evolved as omnivores and can be classed as opportunistic feeders (that is to say we will eat anything to survive - including each other - remember the 1973 Andes aircrash?), so your choice to be a vegetarian is exactly that, a choice and a very convenient lifestyle one at that.<BR/><BR/>One of the commentators on your vegan rant stated that "life is sacred" - is this only sentient life or all life? If it's the latter then maybe all those vegan types should have a read of Roald Dahl's great short story: "The Sound Machine".<BR/><BR/>ps. I really loved your disparaging tone - it does wonders for stimulating debate, and although I will continue to be an omnivore, it is good to highlight the issues of livestock!DeepMonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13907048210217404891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-56579913185147414692007-09-11T20:47:00.000-04:002007-09-11T20:47:00.000-04:00Hey bud I'm a veg head and I COMPLETELY understand...Hey bud I'm a veg head and I COMPLETELY understand what you're talking about! Funny how all these supposed "environmentalists" are still chowing down on blood soaked animal flesh which costs a FORTUNE to produce for the same square hectare that you could grow a good healthy, nutritous crop on! Eating meat is POLITICAL folks! Has NOTHING to do with nutrition. Be green, not mean. Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-71502156729639117342007-08-24T01:04:00.000-04:002007-08-24T01:04:00.000-04:00How can you possibly believe that a person can be ...How can you possibly believe that a person can be "over-empathetic"? It's like saying that somebody is over-compassionate, or over-loving? Is it not? <BR/>It dismisses a prevalent, and I might add – evolved, characteristic of the mind that informs this debate on a fundamental level. <BR/><BR/>Would any of the posters here agree that you can distinguish much that is unethical, or at least ethically questionable, by observing our empathic responses? <BR/>William SAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-49449308711328950202007-08-22T22:54:00.000-04:002007-08-22T22:54:00.000-04:00Hey George,Been long-time reader of your blog and ...Hey George,<BR/><BR/>Been long-time reader of your blog and just wanted to drop a (rare) note to say that if you REALLY want to sway some meat-eaters over to vegetarianism, then you should focus MUCH more attention on the short-term health, environmental, and energy downsides of meat than on how being a bleeding-heart "PETA freak" makes you a better person.<BR/><BR/>A much greater percentage of people -- myself included -- "selfishly" care more about living long enough on a sustainable pre-singularity planet than the *over-empathetic few* who feel smug caring more about the supposed rights of non-sentient, anthropomorphized animals.<BR/><BR/>I draw the line at chimpanzee meat, btw... unless I'm starving. :)<BR/><BR/>Bring on the cheaper lab meat,<BR/>JasonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-28749747302293846342007-08-20T16:20:00.000-04:002007-08-20T16:20:00.000-04:00Xander: Drop me an email some time.Xander: Drop me an email some time.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-16105202800674227712007-08-19T10:30:00.000-04:002007-08-19T10:30:00.000-04:00I appreciated the arguments you made in your post ...I appreciated the arguments you made in your post on eating meat. However, the tone of your post was one of incredulous disdain and complete pomposity regarding your own beliefs. This is the same kind of attitude copped by the religious fanatics out there that are currently pushing to deny equal rights for homosexual couples, forcing women wrap themselves in black from head to toe in 120-degree heat, embarking on "missions" to eradicate and convert ancient cultures who have heard "the Word." It's typical human conceit; everyone thinks they've got it right and others should be convinced to think likewise. It's true, the industrial meat industry is a horror, but there are ways to raise livestock humanely for the purposes of human consumption. Besides, instead of worrying about what old Flossie is feeling when she's being turned into steaks, why don't we all figure out what to do about human suffering. There's plenty of it going on all the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-3904672437227188042007-08-18T18:19:00.000-04:002007-08-18T18:19:00.000-04:00Hi George, I found your blog back in January, and ...Hi George, I found your blog back in January, and couldn't believe my good luck. <BR/>A transhuman, vegetarian, free-thinking, buddhist-leaning, chess-learning, Tool fan! I *knew* there must be another one out there somewhere.<BR/>I've been lurking on your blog ever since, and it remains one of the best I've found anywhere. It may even inspire me to resurrect my own <A HREF="http://vvviking.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">technoprogressive blog</A> at some point.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to let you know what a great job you're doing, and how much I enjoyed your vegetarian post and follow-up, and how much I can relate to the tide of responses that favors outrage over reason.<BR/>Keep it up, man!Xanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07038320498281858660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-82755076939618236432007-08-18T16:52:00.000-04:002007-08-18T16:52:00.000-04:00Just a thought about that:Now, in regards to the a...Just a thought about that:<BR/><I><BR/>Now, in regards to the accusation that I'm a 'bigot' or intolerant of meat eaters, that's an interesting point. Bigotry, I suppose, is relative. Let's imagine for a moment that I had written an article titled 'Racists are bad people,' or 'Homophobes are bad people.' Do you think I would have received the same kind of negative response? Hardly. Aside from a few anachronistic and unenlightened perspectives I'd get a slew of comments saying, 'right on, brother.'<BR/>[...]<BR/>I don't tolerate racism, homophobia, religious prejudice and sexual discrimination, nor do I tolerate speciesist meat-eating culture.</I><BR/><BR/>By "not tolerating" that, you're just as badly intolerant as racists, homophobics, religious bigots and the like.<BR/><BR/>I *do not like* all the things above (racism etc.), because (1)they're utterly wrong scientifically and/or logically (yes, that's my motive no.1, because it's the only objective one) and (2)I feel they lead to a worst world in which I don't want to live, nor I want my fellows to live (3)I don't like intolerance of any kind. But I have to tolerate that -it exists, and it is not going to go away.<BR/><BR/>Racists, homophobes etc. are just people like you and me. And most importantly, their opinions are as worthwile as yours and mine. No kidding. Where do you draw the line about "not tolerating"? Who are you (or me) to judge what can be said/tolerated and what not? On what basis?<BR/><BR/>Fact is, we just have to tolerate opinions and we have to protect freedom of speech. Note that tolerating does not mean playing nice or agreeing with or thinking they're on the same playground. It just means: tolerating. That is, not pursuing censorship and destruction of other opinions -no matter how horribly wrong they seem.<BR/><BR/>And yes -there are probably many racists, homophobes etc. that are overall good people, but probably (and IMHO wrongly) think that it's better for them and for the world to be a racist and homophobic etc. world. <BR/><BR/>As for your post: I'm a specist. Yes, that's my justification about being a meat eater. My line is the mirror test. So I won't eat apes, dolphins, elephants and the like. I do not want the killing of fully self-aware beings. As for non-self aware beings, I frankly don't care. They're biologic robots. I am a biologic robot too, but I am a self aware (and aware of the world) robot. I have a mind world. That's where the value of my life (and that of my fellows) comes from. <BR/><BR/>It's arbitrary? Yes. Not more arbitrary than yours -why must sufference be a moral line? do you have any logical justification about that?m. s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14764317050525231663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-1779492605172783962007-08-17T01:54:00.000-04:002007-08-17T01:54:00.000-04:00John, Thanks for the website, I had no idea there...John,<BR/><BR/> Thanks for the website, I had no idea there were so many places one could order such a wide variety of rices and beans from (linked to from that website). Also, some of the recipes look very interesting... I might give it a try, and, if it's viable I might stick with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-28390287730815866152007-08-16T23:12:00.000-04:002007-08-16T23:12:00.000-04:00I like you George and Mike and I know other vegeta...I like you George and Mike and I know other vegetarians. But for me, top of the food chain and loving it. If the Aliens come across the light years to eat us they must be a very stupid and wasteful interstellar species. To waste that amount of power to eat alien meat. <BR/><BR/>We will convert to generating food from efficient factories. Working to get that research accelerated would be the easiest and fastest way to a solution. You can also work to encourage more and better fish farming which already supplies over half of the worlds fish. You do not care about fish anyway. Fish substituting for cows, chickens, pigs seems something that is more possible.brian wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541279438184352860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-4698723379586413692007-08-16T22:32:00.000-04:002007-08-16T22:32:00.000-04:00To Mr. I eat nothing but frozen chicken because I ...To <B>Mr. I eat nothing but frozen chicken</B> because I can't afford to be a vegetarian. Perhaps check out this site, it offers a downloadable PDF on being Vegetarian on a low-budget, maybe that'll help you to find some other low-cost non-meat items that will give you sufficient nutrition. <BR/>http://www.lbveg.com/Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07688916997474242568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-46219917685056742902007-08-16T17:22:00.000-04:002007-08-16T17:22:00.000-04:00Excellent post, the way people react when their me...Excellent post, the way people react when their meat-eating is questioned is often so ridiculous that it shows they themselves are questioning the morality of it.Michael Anissimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06217926458888484768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-23735423320582523122007-08-16T15:21:00.000-04:002007-08-16T15:21:00.000-04:00Why are many people so vehemently opposed to veget...Why are many people so vehemently opposed to vegetarianism?<BR/>You can reduce the essential message of a meat eater’s argument down to a simple question - why did you have to make me think about that?<BR/>It’s the same message at the root of all resistance to change, especially where power scales and egocentric practices/lifestyles are subject to equalization – slavery, sexism. In modernity, eating the bodies of conscious beings when the ability is there to do otherwise, is to put it mildly, ethically groundless and an asinine practice. But self interest (in this case a merely hedonistic self interest) is a powerful mechanism to overcome. It calls on our highest capacities to surmount – empathy, compassion, temperance, discipline, imagination. Why do people get angry when someone says eating meat is bad? Because deep down, they know it is. There is a reason we feel empathy, but just because it can be easy to ignore, doesn’t mean it should be.<BR/>Anger, as well as rationalist arguments against vegetarianism, is a self defense against empathy. It’s a way of avoiding introspection, self examination, contemplation, and responsibility. In essence, it keeps life easy. <BR/>To inject a bit of science - if a loss of empathy is the main qualification of a clinical psychopath, it is certainly unethical, even personally unhealthy, to follow or endorse a lifestyle that neglects or subjugates empathy on a regular basis.<BR/>Great site.<BR/>William S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-15784315865617835542007-08-15T19:31:00.000-04:002007-08-15T19:31:00.000-04:00I realize it's probably quite late to respond to t...I realize it's probably quite late to respond to this post, but, I continue regardless.<BR/><BR/> I begin by saying that I came very, very close to responding to your [George's] first post. The response I had prepared was very angry and very defensive, as I am very much a meat-eater. In fact, my diet is almost 100% meat based. Despite this bias, I feel that the reasons and logic behind my diet are valid and worth stating. <BR/><BR/> Although I live in the United States (I believe John called it a Democracy, although, it is a Representative Republic; Quite different) I do not feel I actually have a choice in my diet. When one grows up well under the poverty line in a society such as this, you do not have a choice in diet if you want to remain healthy. Between rent, bills, and scrambling to pay for a college education with no support; my income is completely gone. The only reason I can even afford the little food I do consume is "robbing Peter to pay Paul". This sort of life, and I know I am far from alone in it, does not lend itself to buying the vitamins and fresh foods necessary for a healthy vegetarian diet.<BR/><BR/> When a difference of $5 in one's monthly budget can mean the difference between continuing your education or dropping out and being forced to return to the white ghettos of the South you have to be vigilant with your food purchases. I can buy enough meat to live on for well over a week for around $10. I also don't have to worry about any of it going bad as I freeze whatever I don't use immediately. No lost income. Fresh vegetables on the other hand cost much more for the same amount of food (near $20-$25) and they also go bad quite easily. Another major issue is the fact that I have to take off from work for an entire day in order to get to a grocery store since the public transportation system where I live is horrible and the process of getting to the store and back to my home with my purchases takes most of the day. I cannot afford to lose more than 1 day of work every few weeks. <BR/><BR/> Maybe when I've finished my college education and have gotten a decent job which allows me to join the middle class I will consider a dietary change, but, until that point my ability to pull myself out of the lower class overrides my concern for the quality of life for cows, pigs, and chickens.<BR/><BR/> I do not think this makes me a bad person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-11831462479901411402007-08-15T10:26:00.000-04:002007-08-15T10:26:00.000-04:00As a species we've moved beyond MANY practices tha...<I>As a species we've moved beyond MANY practices that were at one time important to the survival of our species! There are hundreds of practices that in hindsight appear to be barbaric and have been abandoned. Hello, that's what progress is all about! Are you suggesting that we bring back slavery too? Because it was a successful method of generating wealth for the masters for hundreds of years?? Gimme a break.</I><BR/><BR/>Just to respond to this, since I don't have much time right now.<BR/><BR/>That is a monumental strawman. Let me put this more plainly. If our ancestors hadn't eaten meat, you or I wouldn't exist. To equate the very thing that allowed us to exist (and still continues to enable the existence of millions of people) with slavery is to completely misunderstand what I said.<BR/><BR/>Show me one vegan culture out there. It's a conceptual, not a cultural, diet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-46404184351574668012007-08-15T00:55:00.000-04:002007-08-15T00:55:00.000-04:00Hi All,Great comments BTW, this, I think, can be t...Hi All,<BR/><BR/>Great comments BTW, this, I think, can be the best part about blogs, not just the initial ideas, but the break down, arguments, discussions that allow the ideas to become richer.<BR/><BR/>Franklin, I wanted to respond to a couple of your points, I think that we're agreeing on a lot of points, and we're just reading different meanings into George's initial post, please allow me to explain my position on this...<BR/><BR/><I>It's not a matter of whether it's the biggest moral or ethical decision. I simply disagree with the sort of prejudice which involves labelling a vast swath of humanity as "bad" without any metric besides diet, and at that, with the very arbitrary line of animal flesh.</I><BR/><BR/>Agree, 100%. Remember, I'm not George. I was already trying to state my position by getting away from the original post and start focusing on the ACTION of eating meat, in particular Factory-Farmed Meat and discussing whether that ACTION is a Moral or Immoral one. Certainly it's wrong to state that people who eat Meat are bad. It was, I think, a generalization designed to spark controversy.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I would phrase my position as as follows:<BR/><BR/><B>People who live in wealthy democracies and choose to eat factory-farmed meat must take responsibility for the unnecessary suffering and slaughter of billions of sentient beings. This action, I feel, is immoral.</B><BR/><BR/>How's that? I think it's fair to say that George's readership is mostly comprised of people living in wealthy democracies where there is sufficient disposable income to support the increase costs associated with choosing vegetarian alternatives to meat, and I think it's also fair to say that a very high % of the meat that is consumed, is from factory farms. <BR/><BR/>There are arguments that say free range or pastorally farmed animals live a much more pleasant life, I think that's a fair argument, but honestly, I don't think there are many people who exclusively eat this type of meat, and those that do, I would, personally, have much less of a problem with that. I also have no problem with someone living in a Country where eating a healthy vegetarian diet is extremely difficult or impossible. If I was stuck out on a island or something, and I had to kill animals to survive, I would do no with no moral or ethical dilemma, fortunately for me, that's not the case.<BR/><BR/><I>The presumption being that there's a universal morality applicable to everyone, and that specificity of each individual's life can be ignored.</I><BR/><BR/>There most certainly isn't a universal morality. But we're talking about the here and now. This year, in North America, Billions of Chickens, Pigs and Cows will be raised in Factory Farms, in horrible inhumane conditions, and subsequently slaughtered. Huge percentages of farmland will be allocated to grow grain for these cows alone, (something like 13 pounds of grain is required to produce 1 pound of beef) farmland that could instead be used to grow grains, fruits & vegetables for human consumption. People living here in North America have easy access to vegetarian choices and could healthily move to a vegetarian diet and eliminate this needless suffering of sentient beings. These creatures feel pain, they certainly appear to have some form of consciousness. We have the ability to do something about it. So in the hear and now, I can confidently say that it IS morally wrong for people to continue to eat Factory Farmed meat.<BR/><BR/><I>(My comment) Each time you eat, you have a choice to make</I><BR/><BR/><I>(Franklin's Reply) Actually, no. Eating doesn't have to be a choice-making, thought-involved process. This is actually detrimental to health. Everything needs to eat, and it's the very nature of earthly existence that something needs to die for something else to keep on living. And plenty of people on this planet have very little ability to determine what they eat, or are simply just thankful to have any food whatsoever. Certainly up until the industrial age, food (and simply being able to be healthy) were blessing unto themselves.</I><BR/><BR/>Ok, I have some major disagreements with this argument. Again, let's focus on the here and now and intended audience. You think it's detrimental for people to make a conscious choice about the food they eat? Huh? What, we should just eat based on our cravings? <BR/><BR/>Also, I'm not judging pre-industrial civilization here, I'm not judging those who can't readily make this change, I'm talking about people in wealthy democracies (to be clear, I hadn't clarified my own position on this, I'd be curious as to George's position on this, again - don't want to speak on his behalf). <BR/><BR/><I><I>That we could in less than a couple centuries get to the point of demonizing something that was essential to our survival as a species is an effete kind of alienated concept.</I></I><BR/><BR/>As a species we've moved beyond MANY practices that were at one time important to the survival of our species! There are hundreds of practices that in hindsight appear to be barbaric and have been abandoned. Hello, that's what <B>progress</B> is all about! Are you suggesting that we bring back slavery too? Because it was a successful method of generating wealth for the masters for hundreds of years?? Gimme a break.<BR/><BR/><I><I>OK, now here's where distinctions matter. Factory farming is absolutely nothing like taking a fishing pole and going to a pond to catch a sunfish. Yet, in George's universe, the executives of some livestock multinational are morally equivalent to some indigenous person living a subsistence existence.</I></I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. As mentioned previously, I see a clear and obvious distinction between these two things, I imagine George would as well.<BR/><BR/><I><I>This notion that we're somehow responsible for giving animals a pain-free existence is crazy. Suffering is inevitable. The degree to which we can lessen the suffering is what's important.</I></I><BR/><BR/>I don't feel we have a responsibility for giving animals a pain-free existence, but I do think we have a responsibility to avoid intentionally raising animals in absolutely horrible conditions. Look at how we treat pets in our society, compare this to how we treat factory-farmed animals. Seems to be a pretty glaring inconsistency here... I know people who've spent THOUSANDS of dollars on medicine and operations to keep an ailing pet alive, and yet, we eat meat all the time and think nothing of the animals that we're consuming. I don't feel a responsibility for giving ALL HUMANS a pain-free existence, but I'm not going to chain a person up in a small cage in my backyard and claim that's an action that's justifiable.<BR/><BR/><I><I>(My Comment) do you think it's Ok that we raise billions of sentient creatures in horrible, inhumane conditions and slaughter them because they taste good? Do you think that's actually acceptable??</I></I><BR/><BR/><I><I>(Franklins Reply)Here again you are focusing on a subset of treatment (conventional industrial livestock production) and moving away from the general statement that eating flesh, no matter what, makes someone an immoral person.</I></I><BR/><BR/>Again, that wasn't my point, and not something that I agree with. I'd be interested in your view on my revised statements. Anyhow that's all, perhaps we've come closer together on a few things, if not, fair play..Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07688916997474242568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-56340686243043056792007-08-15T00:42:00.000-04:002007-08-15T00:42:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-7561573291151769212007-08-14T23:20:00.000-04:002007-08-14T23:20:00.000-04:00Great comment. Thanks for that.Great comment. Thanks for that.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-62415807092276386192007-08-14T23:13:00.000-04:002007-08-14T23:13:00.000-04:00I read the article objectively. I eat meat, I thi...I read the article objectively. I eat meat, I think he had some good points and I think I might try to do the vegitarian thing based on some of them, especially the thing about chickens beaks being trimmed. I realize it is a bad habit and I might fail in the long run to be a 100% vegitarian but I am certainly going to cut back. I believe that we really do need to start treating animals better. If for no other reason that we might find ourselves in a lower social status someday (advanced AI or aliens for example) and I think it would go a lot better for us if we could say how it is "wrong to treat a weaker species as a disposable thing to use and be arbitrarily killed, we (the human race) realized it a long time ago." It might save all of our lives some day. That reason does not hold as much weight if you say it while you eat a bucket of fried chicken.<BR/><BR/>Now I am going to play Spock: The really important thing I learned from the article was not anything to do with vegitarianism or meat eating. The really significant thing was how easy certain responders had their buttons pushed and seemed to be sent into a flaming rage based on someone else's opinion, even conceding how it was obviously meant to do just that. I certainly hope you guys that got mad and responded in anger realize you were manipulated from word one. It was kind of sad actually. Why did you get mad about it? If some guy was in a park giving the same argument George did, how he gave it, and you walked by, would you go over and kick his ass because you don't agree with his argument and his tone? Who controls you? Is it you, or is it everyone around you? No one has the power to make you mad until you give it to them. I would expect that anyone who honestly calls themself a transhumanist would be a bit more rational.<BR/><BR/>I also learned the true answer to the Fermi paradox--aliens look and smell like T-bone steaks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-42089535547382612382007-08-14T21:02:00.000-04:002007-08-14T21:02:00.000-04:00I think a response post would be good. There are ...I think a response post would be good. There are very good points against the claim that vegetarianism is the most ethical choice which were made in the comments.<BR/><BR/>For example, the fact that animals in the wild typically die at length in conditions of extreme suffering. Like, being eaten alive by a predator. Or an injury which immobilizes an animal, causing it to be left by its herd and it either starves or bleeds to death.<BR/><BR/>Animals raised as human food may not exist in ideal conditions, but they surely to not die such drawn out and brutal deaths. Thus, it would seem more logical to argue for the end of allowing animals to exist in the wild if the goal is to eliminate the most suffering.<BR/><BR/>Or the fact that animals are killed by equipment used during the harvesting and maintenance of farm fields.<BR/><BR/>Finally, your arguments for the health case are just not that strong. Extreme diets are fads and you can find books to support any of them. There are no magic bullets. There is no population of people living hugely longer than average by eating no meat. I feel most comfortable with a balanced diet, including some moderate amount of meat. Until there is hard, conclusive evidence that 'meat is bad' even in moderation, I don't think you will see a mass migration away from meat consumption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-41461259602277616852007-08-14T20:38:00.000-04:002007-08-14T20:38:00.000-04:00Here's a thought: what happened to the horses? At ...Here's a thought: what happened to the horses? At the turn of the previous century, horses were ubiquitous. In the gap between 1940 and 1970, they all but disappeared from use. Nowadays, they're a rich brat's plaything. <I>Where did they go?</I> Where are the fields of safe, happy, retired horses and their offspring?<BR/><BR/>It's not a coincidence that the canned dog food industry was invented roundabout then.<BR/><BR/>Moral of the story: the only reason that cows are more common than rhinos, is that people farm cows. Nobody but a zoo-keeper pays to keep a useless animal alive.<BR/><BR/>A vegetarian world is one which doesn't have an animal rights problem - it has an extinction problem.Jules Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115506275519545033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-51225738133410122102007-08-14T19:03:00.000-04:002007-08-14T19:03:00.000-04:00Sure bw, I buy your arguments. Except that the mov...Sure bw, I buy your arguments. Except that the move to vegetarianism can be done in the here and now and have an impact on creatures living in the here and now. And we can work towards those goals you cited as vegetarians. :-)Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13003484633933455827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-73457912439844992602007-08-14T18:48:00.000-04:002007-08-14T18:48:00.000-04:00George, you can of course choose to be an "active ...George, you can of course choose to be an "active futurist", but I think you should consider examining the prioritization of problems. Where exactly are you ranking this issue of vegetarianism out of the current problems ? I, also as a futurist, would rank this far behind getting the energy and transportation infrastructure fixed. I would say the resulting air and water pollution from coal and fossil fuel usage and resulting climate issues results in far more animal and human deaths. I also view the energy and transportation infrastructure issues as things that are more fixable in the timescale of decades. I am active in promoting ideas for fixing the energy mix and transportation (more nuclear power, renewable, cleaning up coal and supporting the legislation in that regard). For your goal, the lower hanging fruit might be where adjustments are made to reduce ecosystem destruction which effects the mammals and birds that you are concerned about. It would also save people and fish and insects.brian wanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541279438184352860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6753820.post-80258227401445308532007-08-14T13:51:00.000-04:002007-08-14T13:51:00.000-04:00The question is, would you be the person you are i...The question is, would you be the person you are if you had not eaten meat for the prime growth years of your life? Neither better nor worse, but certainly different. It is not your position that is frustrating, I happen to mostly agree, it is your general lack of respect for a differing point of view. Especially one that made you, in part, who you are today.<BR/><BR/>I should hope that any super intelligent AI has enough humility and respect to look upon us humans, the un-enlightened by its standards, with patience instead of damnation. The Plato/Socratic Cave Allegory is repeated repeatedly; in this case by you because you were once a meat eating cave dweller.<BR/><BR/> Would an AI return to Socrates' cave to uplift us or would the compulsion that normally drives us to save our brethren be absent in it? Damnation or fraternity?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com